No other like it
 

Kenkojuku karate-do shotokan

Huh???
 

What's the difference betwwen this and other Shotokan schools of thought?
Bryan Seer

Since it is its own branch of the style it has to have at least something unique...well, then the claim "no other like it" can be true if we really nitpick.

However, I'd like to know what makes it so unique. Please, let some light into our darkness.

Kenkojuku Shotokan is the school of Tomosaburo Okano. It was founded in 1941. It has strong influence from Yoshitaka Funaloshi's training methods.

JKa vs Kenkojuku
Technique
JKA's Back stance is long, rear foot points out to the side.
Kenkojuku's Back stance is shorter and the rear foot is turned inward.

Shuto-uke , Knife hand block.
JkA. Lead arm is extended out and away from the body.
kenkojuku's knife hand block the lead arm is tucked in close and the elbow postioned one fist away from the ribs.


Training method.
In general, the emphasis in Kenkojuku was not directed for point tournament fighting. So, the sparring was more of a contiouous flow without the constant resetting to see who tagged who first. In one school I attended, a night did not go by without some type of tai-sabaki drills. And, it wasn't the cooperation partner training of some schools. If you didn't sidestep fast enough, you were hit hard.


Perhaps some of you remember Toyotaro Miyazaki. He was from Tomosaburo Okano's Kenkojuku school.
Fred Hamilton also taught the method.

Antonio Bustillo

Mr Bustilo

You are 100% on you statement.

Jose Fundora

Thanks for explaining...
 

Yeah, it sounds like you are learning good Karate. Glad to see there are some modern practitioners of Japanese Karate that are training this way. Thanks for the explanation. Happy training!
Bryan Seer

Great basic foundation!

To Mr. R. Rousselet,

Yes it should read Funakoshi.

When describing Kenkojuku Shotokan, I used the examples of a basic stance and a basic block.

1)The knife hand block or Shuto uke in Japanese.

2)The back stance, or Kokutsu dachi.

I said the Kenkojuku back stance was shorter and with the rear foot turned inward it is different than the JKA version back stance. You said I was describing a standard 'nekko ashi dachi.' Not so.
Nekko ashi dachi is a 'cat stance' . I made no mention of it.

In 'nekko ashi dachi' the feet are positioned approximately one foot length apart with the heel of the lead foot raised high off the ground and it has little resemblance of a JkA or kenkojuku back stance.


I don't think that the original post was worried about what is pure Shotokan. I don't think there is such a thing.

Nonetheless, an un-JkA-ed version of Shotokan. Indeed.


Antonio Bustillo
www.Steadytraining.com

Yes, its good karate-do, not pure shotokan. After having visited and trained with others you can appreciate the basic foundations that Kenkojuku preached. As Mr. Hector Gomez clearly decribes it, as "great basic foundation". Analyzing and having talked to other Kenkojuku karatekas, I see the distinction and success that they have had in the martial arts.
Mr. Bustillo brings up a couple of good points and variations on Kenkojuku vs. JKA. I feel that we all look back at those GOOD basics that were instilled upon us, at one time or another, and realize how fortunate were to be able to have had learned it this way. I bring this up because I'm sure that we have all fiddled with other types of martial arts (judo, BJJ, kickboxing, MB, etc) and those basics has made us better.

Robert Rousseleot,


No problem.
I had no doubt you knew the differences. I elaborated on what I meant about the 'Back stance' for the sake of the other readers to make sure no one else made quick assumptions.


And, I must agree with you. You stated that there isn't much difference between the Shotokan groups. When we look around at some of the other arts that claim they are so different from similiar arts. Prime example, the pressure point techniques of George Dillman and the Oyata group. I don't see soooo much difference. Therefore, I agree with you.

Antonio Bustillo
www.SteadyTraining.com

Robert Rousselot,

No need for us to go in another direction now. Remember, this thread is on Kenkojuku.

Kenkojuku shotokan is a style of karate that I, at one time, practiced. It was a style I studied for 10 years. Therefore, a style of karate I can comment on with some authority. Did you study kenkojuku for 10 yeras.?
When I mentioned Dillman and Oyata, I simply made the same generalization you did about Shotokan groups.

I don't practice the pressure point stuff. Thus, I admit my view of it has as much worth as your assumptions of Kenkojuku.

Getting back to the topic.

I am interested to hear other peoples perspective on Tomosaburo Okano. Firsthand accounts please.
For example; when he visited the US, memorable experiences you had with him and what impressed you the most about the founder of kenlojuku.

Anything on current and former instructors who trained in Kenkojuku would be interesting.


Antonio Bustillo
www.SteadyTraining.com

Robert R.

No malice intended, I know you have firsthand knowledge of the names I mentioned. I used them an as analogy...it was just an example. No meed to make a case of it.

And, there is one thing I forgot to clear up. On one of your previous messages you reaffirmed the name Funakoshi --I had made a typo, Instead of an k' there was an 'l'--

Nevertheless, I was referring to Gichin's son, Yoshitaka. aka Gigo.

Again, you gotta throw that bit in there that you are in japan.
Wonderful.

But, Robert, seeing, talking, theorizing, and actually doing are worlds apart. No matter where you live.

In most parts of the world, firsthand experience usaually counts just a little tiny bit more'.

A. Bustillo

ROBERT

I know you like to stick to the facts,But IMHO,and everyone
else on this planet, ernesto hoost or peter aerts would probably
win any 4lb metal helmet contact tournament in the world,using
the so called martial sport techniques that you despise so much.

Since you know everyone in japan ,looking them up should be no
problem.

YIYO
Excellent thread, I remember master okano visiting south fla in the summer
of 78,he gave an excellent demonstration on kata and iado.

toyotaro miyazaki was another excellent instructor and competitor
who impressed me with his excellent speed and technique.

Hector Gomez

Robert Rousselot,

It is obvious that it is not me who is getting upset. I have commented by giving examples. Apparently, somewhere along the line I struck a nerve, or pressure point, on you. I have not thrown personal insults. On the other hand you have called me a troll twice. The first, I ignored.
I see you go all over this forum and state your opinion on everything. I don't. On this thread you made a couple of generalizations.

Futhermore, you made a comment alluding to the fact that you can make authoritive statements on a particular topic because you live Japan.
There are Japanese who live in the US. I don't care how long a Japanese lived here, and even if they studied at a proffesional cooking school, I wouldn't automatically use their recipe for grits, meatloaf, apple pie or fried chicken. Even if it was the 'Iron Chef. Capiche?
Listen Robert, I live in Florida. Your are not impressed. I don't blame you. You live in Japan. So what. We're even. Shall we move on.

Now, again, back to the topic...
You asked about mawashi geri and Yoshitaka. I heard the same thing.

The original title of this thread, '...No other like it...'
Hector mentioned Toyotaro Miyazaki who was a student of Okano. Miyazaki is a recognized figure because he tested his skills against the top men in the US during the late 60's, early 70's, and then again during the 80's. And , he was successful.
To date, few Japanese instructors from traditional Shotokan have been so versatile.

A. Bustillo

KENKOJUKO BEACH TRAINING

Back in the mid 70s Mr.sugimoto use to organize beach training
for all kenkojuko branch schools in miami.
This was usually done once a year at a beach called virginia beach,
at the time it had a reputation for being called lovers beach ,among others things,because of its seclusion compared to other heavy populated beaches,this was perfect for training,when we showed
up at the beach, all wearing our karate uniforms ,I remember
the strange stares, among the beachgoers,most were probably
just curious as to what so many people dressed up in white
pajamas ,were doing so early in the morning at the beach.

This was really a lot of fun,because aside from the interschool tournaments, it was a time of the year ,when all branch schools
got together ,and had a great workout with a lot of friends.

the morning workouts would begin with usual warmups followed
by basics ,and kata,there was something about training in the sand,
and being close to nature, that was special and exilirating.

Kumite or one step sparring was usualy done in the water with
both persons facing each other in knee to thigh high water,this
would make kicking and moving just a little more interesting.

the best was definitly left for the end ,Mr. sugimoto would line us up
by teams,then he would proceed to hang cantelopes from trees
suspended by ropes in front of each team.the object of the game
was to hit the cantelope blindfolded as your team instructed you
were it was.

To this day i value the experience of training outdoors and being
close to nature ,as a way of changing the usual routine and adding
a little excitment to my workouts.


PS.Be easy on me guys ,i just felt compelled to tell my little story
and no i dont train in my white gi on the beach anymore.

Hector Gomez

ROBERT ROUSELEOT

Robert i know we got off on the the wrong foot,but for
me its really water under the bridge,i am really looking foward
to your opinion and experience on certain topics:wave:

HectorGomez

Beach & Outdoor training
 

I remember attending a couple of the beach training seesions. I think as teenagers what we liked most about the special seesions was the change, the fun of training outside the dojo and going to the scenic beach. There is definitely something special about training outdoors. As a mattar of fact, I remember, while I was in Kenkojuku, every so often and for no special reason we'd go out in the backyard of the building to train.

Nowadays, I find training in the park, minus my gi, beneficial.

Antonio Bustillo
www.Steadytraining.com

It was back in 1979. Our instructor told us that we would have a visitor from the Kenkojuku organization with us for a week of training and motivation (OK, it sounds good to me). That was, TOYOTARO MIYAZAKI. At that time, I was young and ignorant and I did not know much of him. Thank you Mr. Bustillo for bringing up his name up. As a young lad, I experienced some of best karate-do I have ever seen. As you probably know, at one point of your martial arts tenure and/or career, there is one karateka that stands out in the back of your mind as the best you have ever seen and to me it was Sensei Miyazaki. He had the best kicks, the best techiques, the best katas, the best movements. Everthing was crisp and perfect. Wow.!!

How about going to the Palm Springs Mall in Hialeah (a Kenkojuku favorite) and doing a 1 hour seminar there impressing the hell out of every spectator. As a teenager, these were definitely good times with alot of adrenilan. There was this one excellent karateka (long-haired) by the name of Dennis Z that would always steal the show with his excellent showing. And, yes, how can I not forget those beach training at Virginia Beach. (not any more)

Takeshi Akuzawa
 

Yes, Toyotaro Miyazaki was superb.
One of the things I liked about him was his calm demeanor.

There is another karateka, Takeshi Akuzawa, who is considered T. Okano's best student. Mr. Akuzawa arrived in the U.S. during the early 60's and taught in Memphis for several years before relocating to Coral Gables , Florida.

Latest update on Kenkojuku.....

Kenkojuku's 60th anniversary was in September. Several instuctors traveled to the Tokyo honbu for the celebration.

Antonio Bustillo
www.SteadyTraining.com

Yoshitaka Funakoshi was instrumental in developing the roundhouse kick ( mawashi geri) and the side kick ( yoko-geri ) and the fudo dachi ( rooted stance )and the importance of useing the whole body in a coordinated method along with the importance of relaxation( Layton; pg 26 ).


The development of the J.K.A style of Shotokan Karate can be traced to the type of Karate that was/is taught and practiced at Takushoku University ( Cook ; Shotokan A Percise History )



As someone who trains in the J.K.A style of Shotokan ( also in Okinawan Goju Ryu: Shobukan ) I place my elbow one fist away from my body when I execute a shuto-uke ( knife hand block ) ,focus is placed on moveing the elbow first, then snaping the forearm,wrist,hand .





ken allgeier

Differences
 

Ken A.

There are plenty of similarities between the Shotokan groups. Even so, there are also plenty of differences between Kenkojuku schools and JKA.

Harry Cook's book on Shotokan and its history is good, but it is basically the story of JKA, not Kenkojuku. There are many Shotokan groups that have nothing to do with Nakayama's JKA and their focus on training, and curriculum are not the same.

I'll cite another example.

Hirokazu Kanazawa states that weapons, kobudo, training was never practiced at the old JKA. (Fraguas, p. 130)
Of course, there are some JKa men who know weapons because they studied on their own, but that is another matter.

However, Tomosaburo Okano the founder of Kenkojuku is a recognized kobudo expert. Kobudo is part of the Kenkojuku curriculum.


Antonio Bustillo
www.SteadyTraining.com

funny quick story

It was early 70s jhoon rhee had just invented the pattened
foam safety kicks, and someone had the guts to bring it to
class ,and set it down by our sneakers and sandals,maybe this
person was thinking about practicing with them after class.

This was definitly a very bold move, at that time in our
school,anyway class gets underway, and sensei notices the
safety equipment ,he inspects it ,and in typical fashion demands to know
who brought them in,well i knew, but i wasn't telling,and neither
was anyone else.

Sensei took the safety kicks opened the front door and threw them
out to the street,never asked who they belonged to ,and did not care.
no one said a word, and we proceeded to have the most strenuos
class i have ever experienced.Bottom line" if there is one", put
your kicks in your bag ,and out of sight.

Hector Gomez

Hector,

I didn't witness the incident, but I remember hearing about it. It was around the time the teacher was giving free haircuts.

What happened to the Jhon Rhee safety gear? Was it found?
I don't know what they were thinking. During that time, no type of protective equipment was allowed in our dojo.

Antonio Bustillo
www.Steadytraining.com

Antonio i don't remember what happened to the safety kicks,but
the haircut was definitly not a negotiable issue.

You probably need oj simpson best lawyers to get away with some of that stuff nowadays.

no other like it
 

Nice thread yiyo, Mr. Gomez and Mr. Bustillo, I have not posted here before as I have no firsthand knoledge of Kenkojuko. I have enjoyed reading these stories, some of which I've heard before are just great.Keep up the good work. On a second note, I had frequented Virginia Beach many times in the past and remember
that beach for other reasons.


Regards,
Manny Salazar
it's all that
at the budo barn;) :D

no other like it
 

Btw, I think I know the hair cut guy.:D


Manny Salazar
it's all that
at the budo barn;) :laugh:

Yiyo, Hector,

The better known kenkojuku instructors were Toyotaro Miyazaki, Takahashi, Sugimoto of course, but I remeber another gentleman who was an expert with the Kamas. Hiroa, ? His name escapes me right now. What ever happaned to him? Did he go to another part of the country to teach? Back to Japan?

Antonio Bustillo
www.Steadytraining.com

Antonio i believe his name was sensei Horie,and yes
he was excellent with the kamas,I once saw him perform with
very sharp edge blades.He accidently nicked himself in the back as
he was swinging the kamas and started bleeding.

I know miyazaki was good with the bo ,but i also believe he was
great with the kamas.
Aside from the sword, I remember Mr. Sugimoto playing around with
the tonfas.
Hector Gomez

Sugi's Tonfas
 

You are right. koji sugimoto was proficient with the tonfas.

What he taught me helped when I had to use the PR-24.

So, what ever happaned to Horie?
I do remember the incident when he cut himself during a demo. Mr. Horie didn't bat an eyelash and continued as if nothing had happened.

Antonio Bustillo
www.SteadyTraining.com

Hi there gentlemen. I'm still here. What ever happened to Horia.?? I did have the pleasure of meeting Mr. Horia at the YMCA. I remember Sugimoto always doing kata with the tonfas. Randy Rodriguez also use to screw around with the tonfas at times in class.
I remember Sugimoto walking around in class with a chalkboard stick smacking anyone that did not have a correct kiba-dachi stands or deliver a sluggish gyaku-zuki. ???? Thats a great story on the pro-tech foam equipment. Was that Sal that brought those to class.??
I remember one day going to class on a Tuesday night at the Y, and it was kumite time, and this brown belt (at the time) and the instructor teaching that day got into a full contact match, all out. Later after class, it almost started outside, but, we all stopped it (we should have let it go). No BJJ at the time.

Hey Antonio. I never met Takahashi. Did he go back to Japan or he still here in the U.S. ??

Antonio

Yes that is very true, horie did not bat an eyelash during
that demo.

Yiyo
takahashi from what i remember, was a very big powerful
man,there was stories of him hitting the heavy bag with
a hell of a lot of power,i believe he might still be in N.Y

Antonio
I recieved your e- mail about kenkojukos 60th anniversary,I
don't think we are on the guest list.

Hector,

Believe it or not, I received an invitation to attend the celebration in Japan.

Yiyo,

Takahashi has a dojo in NY. he is listed as the Head of kenkojuku in the US.
I will send you his website.

Kobudo weapons.
Each of the kenkojuku instructors had their favorites.
If memory serves corect:
K. Sugimoto- Tonfas, nunchaku,
Hotie -Kamas
Toyotaro Miyazaki - Bo, sai and also the sword.
Tomosaburo Okano, the founder, all the Okinawan weapoms, and he has advanced degrees in the sword arts.


Antonio Bustillo
www.Steadytraining.com

60 th Anniversary Photos
 

Celebration held in Japan.

Photos of Kenkojuku's 60th anniversary.

Mr. John Egan's, Chirf instructor, website.

www.marinshotokan.com


Antonio Bustillo

I cross referenced some information about Kenkojuku Shotokan.
The connection between Yoshitaka Funakoshi and Tomosaburo Okano was mentioned on this thread.

Reportedly, the Head Instructors of most Shotokan groups main influence came from Gichin Funakoshi. However, there are a handful of people who had strong ties to Funakoshi's third son, Yoshotaka. The latter group, T. Okano and his kenkojuku is in this category, brand of shotokan adheres more to the trainining emphasis of Yoshitaka. Thus, the differences; stances,--also, fudo-dachi is used more--
certain forms are included, the kicking strategy, and focus of fighting.

Antonio Bustillo
www.Steadytraining.com

Yiyo,
While I hate to post anything about moderatin' and rules if I don't have something else to add, it is a rule here to sign with your complete, real name.

If you are having problems with the signature feature in your e-budo prefs, I understand many are experiencing problems, if this is the case, please manually type your full name to your posts. I hear tell that the sig. problem was fixed, so go into your prefs by clicking on "change profile" at the top of the page.

Again, I apologize to everyone for the rather empty post.

Regards,

Mark

Antonio. Thats definitely real good inside information about Okano and his realtionshiop with Funakoshi's son. Now is when I am starting to realize some of differences that you mentioned between Kenkojuku and other shotokan branches.
Do you all remember the ALL-KUMITE classes that were held at the Samurai dojo in Coral Way maybe once a month (no kids).??? I will tell I saw some of the most aggressive style of karate-do fighting in those classes. Granted we were alot younger at that time, but, it sticks. The minute you would walk in that dojo (also a ballet school) you could feel the vibes. We would go home those nights with bruised shins, sore ribs, jamed toes, etc. It was good.

P. Castillo
Yiyo

Yiyo,

There was an article on T. Okano in a 1975 Black Belt magazine. The interview includes Okano's views about fighting in the dojo.
You, we, experienced what he mentions firsthand.

If you like, I will find the article and mail it.

Antonio Bustillo
www.Steadytraining.com